Kilian Jornet is the best mountain athlete of all-time. At the start of 2022, Kilian started his own new footwear and apparel brand, which is planning to debut its products in the fall. The brand is called NNormal and we used this conversation to talk all about its inception and Kilian’s goals for the future of the company. Of course, we also talk about Kilian’s athletic life, his 2022 season, returning to Hardrock and UTMB, and the state of the sport.
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Dylan Bowman: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the free trail podcast. I'm Dylan Bowman. And today I'm very happy to share a conversation with the goat, Mr. Killing. JNE. One of the greatest athletes of all time is here on our little podcast. Of course, I've wanted to host Kee on the show since its inception, and I'm very glad we were finally able to connect and make it happen. And I'm very grateful to Kellian for carving out the time. It has been an especially busy and dynamic time in the life of this great champion. As most of you will know, Keion recently started his very own new footwear and apparel brand after departing from longtime sponsor Solomon at the end of 2021, that brand is called normal. And we used this conversation as an opportunity to talk all about it, the mission and purpose behind it. What made Kellen want to take on this huge new endeavor at this point in his career, the painful process of separating from Solomon after so many years and so much success together, the values around environmentalism and sustainability of normal and what Killian's goals are for the future of the brand.
Dylan Bowman: In the second half of the show, we transition and talk about Killian's athletic life, his upcoming season, the state of the sport, and a lot more, we recorded this conversation a couple weeks ago, but this coming weekend in just a couple days, Keion will be competing again, starting his season at Ze Gama, the legendary marathon distance mountain race in Spain, and a race that he's already won a staggering nine times in his career. So on behalf of freetrial nation, we want to wish Keon, good luck. Not that he's gonna need it this weekend, but of course, we talk about that as well as Killian's planned return to both hard rock and UT M B this summer, needless to say it was a huge honor for me to host killing on the show. He is such a great champion, but also just such a good hearted, simple person, a man of integrity and just a perfect role model for the world.
Dylan Bowman: We are very lucky to have him as the public face of our sport before we get to it a big thank you to our presenting sponsor speed land like normal speed land is mission driven, a startup dedicated to the trail category in particular, the new SL HSV is out now and the inventory is moving quickly from what I've heard. So go visit, run speed, land.com. Grab a pair of those before it's too late. You may have seen this week speed land added Avery Collins to the athlete roster welcome Avery and Liz Canty also smashed the existing course record in route to a victory at cruel jewel in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. So shout out to those two, lots of really excited things in the pipeline with speed land. So if you need a new pair of the best trail shoes ever made, go visit run speed, land.com, grab a pair of the SL HSV. Also go follow these guys on Instagram at run speed land, thanks to Dave and Kevin for all their support of the show. Thank you all for being here. Hope you guys enjoy this episode killing and JNE welcome to the podcast.
Kilian Jornet: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. I'm I'm actually listening to your podcast when I'm running during the long runs and it's, it's always like entertaining and learning a lot. So, uh, it's a, it's a real honor to be here.
Dylan Bowman: Uh, Kelly, the honor is all mine and, uh, it's quite humbling to know that you sometimes listen to the podcast and I've wanted to have you on for a long time. And I'm really glad that we can finally organize it. I know we've both been very busy and uh, I want to start our conversation by talking about what you've been busy with, that being the launch of your new brand normal. And I want to open it with a very broad question. I just read a book called, start with why, and it's all about how in business, everything needs to be mission driven. So, you know, there obviously needs to be like this deep feeling of purpose in order to take on the enormity of this type of project. So I wanted to start by just letting you tell us what the mission is of normal.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, that's, uh, that's a big question. First of all, the, you say the why, uh, I believe that it's something very important and everything we do on life, we need to, to try to, to ask ourself like why we are doing that. And it's, uh, it seems very obvious, but it's, it's not, because many times we get drawn on, on life and things that's happening and, and impressions on things. And, and we don't spend the time to think, okay, why am doing this or why I want to do these. And, and for me, I'm, I think, uh, all my careers since I started, um, as a teenager to, to do sports on not professionally, but like in a serious way, like that was my main purpose. It was to, to train and to try to perform. So I have mentors, I have like a super from different teams from like national teams and from different sponsors and all that.
Kilian Jornet: So I have been, uh, residing a lot. Like I have been getting a lot from, from many people from, uh, many brands from many, um, yeah. Institutions too. So on a point, uh, we, like, we realize that the sport it's something that it's very egocentric in a way, because like, we are putting a lot of, not only for ourself, like, uh, um, putting a lot of hours, putting a lot of efforts, but also for the people that it's around. Like, if you have like people that it's supporting you, they are dedicating part of their time being paid or not like, I mean, like you can have visitor repairs or like coaches, but also like family and they are dedicating a lot of time. So you can go to the razor project and at then it just to feel an emotion, you know? Yeah. So it's like to, to ask for a lot just for, for a feeling for an emotion and, and in a way, like, I believe that the sport have a, a big role on society when it comes to, to the physical activity, to being healthy, to being to move because we are animals and we need to move to, to keep health.
Kilian Jornet: And, and also when it comes to, to exploration, to discovering things, to human exploration, to, to thinking how to mental health, it's, it's very important. And, and I, I always struggled a lot about who am I as a public person, because I'm, I'm very, very introverted and I have been struggling for many years on yeah. Anxiety and that on that's why we moved to Norway, like to be, to be insulated, but, uh, it's bit very difficult, like to accept that. And one of the reasons it was mostly that, that I'm just a runner. I'm just someone that put one feet after the other a bit faster than others, but nothing more. Yeah. And, and to, to understand why I'm doing that and, and what I can give in return, it's, it's been taking a lot of time, but, uh, I think, uh, I, I came to an end and, and that started, I would say, um, uh, when I was going to London to climb or like we were going to, to, to climb memories, but then it was there earthquake.
Kilian Jornet: And we end up, uh, doing some, uh, uh, like helping in London, like trying to, to find bodies, to find people and, and, and doing that. And we realized, or I realized that it was possible through our capacities as a sportsman to, to help society. And then like we made the video and we raised money for, for building houses there. So it was like, okay. Sport can be, not only like for that emotion at the end, but, uh, it can, it can have a, a meaning behind a mission. And that was the, the seed to start about the dedication foundation to start to say, okay, we want to do more projects about, uh, environment to how, how we can preserve the, the nature that we are enjoying mostly, because also being very, very honest, like the planet will keep like the, the geography mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: And, and we are biodiversity, so we will die as a humanist piece. So it, it was more to save ourself like that we need to fight. And that was one of the reasons to start the foundation. And then, uh, I think, um, that with my, uh, I'm pretty geeky when it comes to year, I'm very, very geeky. So I love you're. I love designing. Uh, so these two things together, it was kind of, uh, an idea I had in my mind to, to start something, uh, by myself. But it's, it's only like an idea, you know, that, it's, it just kind of a dream that it will never happen. Yeah. But, uh,
Dylan Bowman: But it was born out of the feeling of wanting to be of service to give back a little bit more and in line with your environmental values.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, exactly. That's the, that's the mission of then it's to, to, to enjoy and preserve natural to, to, because we love sport, but, uh, but we need to do it responsibly. I love that.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. I mean, cuz sport does have, as you said so much power to change the world and especially with an athlete of your stature coming in, you know, to create a new business who at its core is there to advocate for the environment, but also advocate for people being out and being able to enjoy the environment. Obviously like everybody knows you worked closely with Solomon for more than half your life. I think it was like 18 years. I think you both
Kilian Jornet: 18 years. Yeah. It's
Dylan Bowman: The same. You guys had amazing success together. Obviously you're the best trail mountain runner in history. One of the great athletes of all time, in my opinion. And I wonder if there was any kind of internal conflict about leaving a partner of so many years. And when did you begin to consider creating this own, your own brand? And was there any, yeah. Was there any internal conflict about leaving? What had probably become a big part of your sort of personal identity?
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, it, it wasn't an easy decision. It was like, because, uh, I'm not the kind of person that changed like to one brand to another, just because like manager, because like, uh, whatever, uh, I've been with saloon for like, it's been my only sponsor when it comes to try running since I started, uh, when I was like, uh, from 2004, so it's been a lot of years and um, and we've been working like on crazy projects and together, and it's been an amazing journey. Um, but, um, it came like very naturally in the way that, uh, I had this idea, I was mentioning about like, yeah, it would be nice to start something, but, uh, but being realistic, it was, it's very, very difficult. So then I, I just, it just happened that a friend of mine, uh, knew also some people that, uh, was, uh, uh, the, the flu family that, uh, it's, um, it's a family from Ayo that they were thinking about the same, like they wanted to, they have, um, they are, uh, humor factors, not in a sport, but on, um, on lifestyle. And they wanted to start the camper,
Dylan Bowman: Camper prep. Yeah.
Kilian Jornet: Camper, yeah. Camper. So they, they were thinking about doing something on outdoor, more on like a sport and, and this friend of comment, just say, you should talk guys because he, he know my ideas and, and he knew them very well too. And, uh, we were, we were just like going to, to talk a bit, and, and from the first moment we, we didn't talk much about like, uh, uh, what a product should look, but we were talking a lot about what was the role of a company, what, how a company should be like responsible when it comes to the society, to the environment and, uh, and the importance of, of the design and all that. And the importance of, um, yeah, like looking on that on a very holistic way. So we were like, it's, it was very natural. It, it didn't feel hard to leave Salomon after all these years because of that. It would be, I, I, I wouldn't leave Salomon just for a, if I, yeah. If, if, if I didn't feel that the, that was the right thing to do and yeah. I I'm happy for it. It's crazy. It's a lot of work. It's amazing. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's a lot of time, but, uh, yeah, but I'm, I'm learning a lot and it's, uh, it just, uh, great to, to learn about all that.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. Incredible. But you were a huge part and to building Solomon into what it is now, you just talked about how you're a geek about equipment and many of their products were inspired by your approach to the mountains. And you really did change in a lot of ways, how people of our generation approach the mountains. And I'd be curious to hear, I mean, maybe it's too personal, but just sort of like how they reacted when you said you were gonna be doing this new project, because I'm sure it was hard for everyone, even if it was for the best was I, I mean, there was beautiful respect back and forth, and it seemed like mutual appreciation for the contributions, both to what you brought to them and what they brought to you. But, uh, I'm curious, you know, what, what it felt like to sort of have those conversations with them and, and how they felt about you.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. It's not, um, it's not a conversation that you want to have. Yeah. It's not a conversation that you, you are like going like, uh, yeah, happy to eat, but, uh, but it's needed. And, and, and it's, um, it's just part of, of a pattern. We know, like, uh, uh, live, it has different chapters and, and, and at end, it's not about companies, but it develop people. Yeah. I would say like, and, um, I'm still very, very friend with all the people I have been working in Sal, like, uh, with search Patrick, all the designers with the people in marketing. So it's not because I'm now starting, uh, uh, a business and like, uh, trying to, to build products and, and to, to be in the, in the market that we will not talk to each other, like each other, but it's the opposite. Like, it's, I, I, I believe that we need to look more about corporation and, and in the future, it should be more that, uh, I think in us, it's a bit better in Europe companies.
Kilian Jornet: They, they are very, they, they tend to preserve a lot to not, uh, not share resources, not share like, uh, um, not collaborate a lot. And I think it's, it's something that we should do more because like, if we want to, we're talking about environment responsibility that that will come on sharing the knowledges. And, and when it comes to athletes, like why, uh, why, how we can improve the, the, the athletes, uh, living and like how the, the secrets now it's, it's, it's completely mess now with all the secrets and the
Dylan Bowman: I mean, it's beautiful. And that was sort of my expectation. And I think it's good for the community to know that, you know, that you guys can park part ways with a lot of mutual respect and appreciation for what you were able to do together. You just mentioned that life has chapters and you and your partner, Emily, you know, she's obviously a big part of this new project as well with normal. You guys have two kids now, does this feel like the next chapter of your lives together? And, and maybe tell us what it's like to be able to work on this almost as a family, you know, with your partner and Emily, who's also one of the best of all times. So,
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, no, it's, I, I think we are pretty chill out both of us. Like we are not, we are very relaxed on, on taking things, but, uh, it's, I would say it's, it's good to do things together, uh, on a way, uh, of course like, uh, Emily is also ambassador for normal and, uh, she's part of the team and she have very good ideas when it comes to, to gear too. Uh, and especially when more on a, on a woman's vision, it's, it's just very important. And also, uh, all what she's doing with, um, with Mumba, like, uh, she have, uh, also a company with uhon and, and Mimi Kota, they are doing like, um, um, some nutrition, food, Nutri, like bars and nutrition and all that. So, um, we can also talk about like, the challenges that it's in, in, in companies and, and the responsibility of the companies and how, how to face, because it's, it's a lot of, um, moments that, uh, that, um, yeah, if, if you want to have, uh, success and, and by success, I don't mean to earn more money, but, uh, but to be sustainable economically, and, and to be doing good, like, uh, some choose some choices, they will, uh, not be obvious and, and you will need to compromise sometimes and to, to have these discussions together.
Kilian Jornet: It's, uh, it's very interesting. It's very important. Uh, also with, uh, uh, of course, uh, with my partners with camp, but with, with Emily, I think that, uh, we are in, in a chapter now that it's like try to, to change, to be like, just like two kids that we were like running around and playing and having just fun and, and, and like, uh, living in Iran to now having two kids and like, uh,
Dylan Bowman: And two businesses,
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. Business and like the logistics of like, all these it's a lot. So it's like how to have meetings and, and, and the, and being with the kids that we believe that it's very important to be present and, and to train because like, again, like, I, I, uh, I want to be an athlete and Emily to, and, and to, to manage all this, I think we are, we are finding our ways on, on this.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. Well, it's great to enter this new chapter together. I'm sure it comes with a lot of challenges, but probably comes with a lot of joy to do it together as a family. So talking about the structure of the business, now, you mentioned a second ago, your partners in camper, a footwear brand based in Spain and New York, I don't think many American listeners will be familiar with camper. So maybe introduce them and tell us how you came to be connected and, and maybe how normal and camper fits together. Practically.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. So actually, um, camper is a family owned, uh, business. Uh, so it's a family, the family official that owns the, the company and, and they, they have a tradition of like making footwear for, uh, more than 150 years. So it was a big, um, know how and a big industry in my York about footwear. And, um, then, uh, when camper started, uh, by, um, uh, your is the, the, the father of the actual CEO of, uh, of camp, it was fun that they it's, it's a big company nowadays. Like, uh, they, they have, uh, explores all over the world, but they, they are still very familiar. Like it's a, it's a family that owns the, the business and they have a very, uh, strong vision on, on, on the social responsibility would say also on the environmental responsibility, they, they have been building like, uh, um, fully recyclable issues for, for long.
Kilian Jornet: And they have been building, uh, working a lot with the durability and with, with that since the beginning and, and on a way that I like it, that is not about promoting it, but it's just because they believe that it's the way to do it. And I think, um, that's one very important challenge that we, we are facing that when you look to social media, like, uh, everybody's talking about like the, the carbon footprint, and everybody's talking about the materials about the sustainability, but when you talk to commercials, nobody in the shop ask about sustainability, they ask about performance, about price and about that. So, um, we need to be a sustainable like products, but, um, because we believe it not because it's a marketing tool, so that's, uh, that's something that, uh, when we were talking together from the first time, like, I really resonate to them that they say, okay, we, we are a company, we are a family that we have a company and we want to, to be successful in business because, uh, they, yeah, they believe on the, on the role of business into the, the, the society and the people there, like to, to give jobs and to give, uh, also like, um, uh, with that money, not having stakeholders, it helps also to, to be able to choose what you do with, uh, with the money.
Kilian Jornet: Um, but also what's the, it's, uh, the, the social and the environmental responsibility. It's something that, that they believe that it's important to do. But's not a tool that they use in marketing. So then some moments you can use it on a more holistic way and not try to get, uh, uh, code in, in what's the last trend of this thing. So, so that's something that, uh, that I really like it from them. Um, but mostly, yeah, it's, uh, just a family that, uh, they, uh, they love, they, they really love to, to make shoes. They are very passionate about that. And, and, um, and then like, um, we made a partnership, so, um, it's, uh, it's a company between the, the, the two of, of us. And, and then, uh, we, we just, uh, found, uh, uh, people that they are also like, uh, a team of, uh, very passionate, like, uh, all the people that is working in the brand. They are, uh, young people that love sports, love, other sports, and, uh, and that they are very talented because at then, like, um, I'm an athlete. I can have good ideas about, uh, gear, but, uh, we need to have people that they can translate that into products. And, and that's, uh, that's the most important that, uh, you have people that they are very talented on, on making the, the values of the company and in making the, the products, uh, mm-hmm
Dylan Bowman: So you take some of this experience cultivated over 150 years from the camper brand and build a small team around normal, and they probably help you with the manufacturing part of the product creation. Is that kind of how
Kilian Jornet: It works? Yeah. Mean like that, it's, it's more like normal have a it's own team that it's, uh, it's not, um, uh, they it's part of
Dylan Bowman: Camper. Yeah. Okay.
Kilian Jornet: Part of camp. So it's not like it's not normal inside of camp, but they are two separate companies. Yeah. Um, but then of course, like, uh, we are using, uh, the, they know how of camper and, and, and also like the, uh, all the, kind of the back coffees and that, because it's a lot of, uh, of work on that. And, and we have not the, the, the, the people and the resources for that. So we are using the, the, all that from camper, but also, uh, what I was super surprised, like, uh, knowing like a bit of the other industries is that, uh, when we went to, to camper, like for doing the prototypes, it was like, uh, okay. I have this idea. And then like the day after, uh, one of the, of the designers came like with, with macab like a prototype saying, okay, yeah, I, we have a 3d machine here. So like I made just a it's like, well, normally that takes like once, because you need to send the, the designs to, so they are very advanced, um, on, on some technologies on making, uh, um, prototypes. And, and that's been like, uh, super, super resourceful to, to be able to advance on, on the ideas. And that's because even if they, they, yeah, they, they are new in the, that technical footwear for, for others, but they, they know very well how to make shoes and, and that's, yeah, that's a big, big start.
Dylan Bowman: Cool. I was just curious about the structure of the businesses and how you guys fit together, but it makes perfect sense. So obviously, like you've been, been an athlete your whole life, as you mentioned, you've been sponsored by Solomon since 2004. And even before that you were competing at a high level. I think as a kid, you've always felt that you were an athlete still are what best in the world, but entrepreneurship, a different ball game. I wonder what your experience has been like entering the business world. Do you find the same kind of focus and determination that you've brought to your training has translated into this new business venture?
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, I I'm, I'm a bit like work a colleague sometimes, like is like, when I focus on training, I can focus a lot. When I focus on, on idea, I can focus a lot on that. I also like the things I don't like. I, I have really, like, I, I give a shit, like I,
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. I put zero interest and zero, so it's, but it's important to know it, like it's important. I, I know what I'm good or like what I I can do and what I can do. And, and, and then like, uh, to find people that it's very good on that. And to, to not try to, to overstep on, on things that I, I know that I'm not good at. Um, so, uh, I love product. I love gear. I love the, the diploma. And I, I love also like what's the, the, the marketing, or like the, the, the values and, and the, the role of the company as, as we mentioned. But then, uh, it's things that I'm learning like about the, the business side that, uh, I'm not that interested in that I, I believe that it's important because it needs to be, as I mentioned for companies to be, uh, sustainable economically. So it needs to have a success to be able to invest and to be able to, to, to, yeah. To, to pay the salaries. Um, but, uh, about the rest, I, I'm not that interested, so I, I, I'm learning a lot, but I'm, it's, it's always like you go where you like, so
Dylan Bowman: You focus on what I'm
Kilian Jornet: Going more on the problem. Yeah,
Dylan Bowman: Sure. So, but I mean, like, we're building a business right now too, and I've definitely felt that I've had to sacrifice my athletic life at times, just because free trail has been sort of all consuming. You're also a father of two, while you're building this startup. Have you noticed something similar, like, have you noticed that you've had to sacrifice your own training at all in service of this new goal?
Kilian Jornet: It's I would say like, I'm training the same amount as before, but I'm training better, I would say, or I'm training, like bef I'm realizing that before I was losing a lot of hours, mm-hmm,
Kilian Jornet: So like, uh, spending like half of the day in JVA with the girls. And, and then that means that the hours that we need to train, uh, we were really going for the training and it was not just like, okay, hang around and like, uh, see when the weather is good and just go now and then, okay. Now I, I go to chat with that guy or that, no, no. Now he's like, okay, I have three hours for him. So I do my work out. I do that. And then, and I think it's also like to, to change the focus on it, like, uh, um, to, to be able to, when, when I'm not training, then it's, um, home and it's, uh, focus a hundred percent on the girls. And, and you're not thinking out if you say, is, would, or bad, or, or focusing on the, on, on the, the charge with the, with the team on, on, on the company and normal or, or on the project and the foundations, it's, it's good.
Kilian Jornet: Like, I, I love to things and, and it's good to, to not be only thinking about, okay, I'm in good shape or I'm bad shape, because before it's most like, you have a lot of time. Yeah. And, and you are training, but you are training like, uh, four hours a day. You are spending a few hours, like just doing things that they are and giving anything, and then you are just like going around. So it's, uh, I would say it's, it's a lot of logistics. Yeah. Like logistics sometimes is not easy. And, and probably it's more that, uh, we cut on, uh, a lot on traveling, but also that was also a choice before from, from the footprint. But, um, but, uh, on rest, you're
Dylan Bowman: Still able to train, like you always have, so that's great. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk more about the sustainability mission of the company, because it seems like this is sort of the core foundation from which you're approaching the market. Those of us who followed you for a long time, know that you're a passionate environmentalist, you've got your foundation. And we also know that sort of the footwear and apparel industries can be quite wasteful. So talk about the sustainability elements of normal and how you plan to improve on the status quo of the industry.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a huge subject and it's, um, it's a lot of, um, angers to, to look at it. Uh, I would say one is like about the product, uh, what you are building, how you are building it, and, and on that is important. Our way to look at it first, like durability, uh, we believe that, uh, uh, a product that lasts long, it's a product that, uh, that it's, uh, it's more sustainable because, uh, it will have, um, uh, a longer life. So it means that, uh, you will extract less, uh, resources from, from, from earth, or even if it's coming from recycle, like you will have a, a longer like, uh, life cycle. Uh, so we, we are really focusing on their ability. Durability comes also with functionality, because if you make something assure that it's made on it on like, of course it will be very D but, uh, it will not be functional.
Kilian Jornet: So really working on, on those, on, on the durability and when it comes to durability, then it comes also with the, everything that it's, uh, after, uh, when it's worn, that comes to repairability, uh, it comes to circularity. So it's something that we are really working on it. And, and that's, um, it's not only about, uh, the materials. We believe that it's important to use materials that they are more sustainable, but, uh, but not in, um, uh, in detriment of the, of the durability. So I would say first is to, to make that day last and then to use the best materials for it. Um, and, and when it comes to the, the reportability or the circularity, it's, uh, it's important to think about what are the materials that I'm building this product with, but also when it comes to design, how it's, because you need to imagine, okay, this product, when it's worn, how I will separate the, the, the materials to, to recycle how I will be able to, to yeah.
Kilian Jornet: To repair or to recycle those, those, those materials. And what's the INFR tool that they need behind to, to make that possible. Because, uh, today it's many ma many yeah. Products that they are potentially circular or potentially repairable, but it's not the infrastructure to make it possible. So, um, so that's, uh, that's a big thing to, to work on it. And, and then, uh, it's also, uh, durability is not only when it comes to, to the, the product lasting, but, uh, it's also about the, the style, like, uh, how long will you want to wear this product and that, uh, that's about the timeless, like, to make timeless designs so that, uh, it's colors or it's, uh, shapes that, uh, they will not get old into years. Mm. Uh, like we see in, especially in, um, in the, in the sports industry that we are following trends, like it's the collection of the year, it's this color, or is this
Dylan Bowman: Every shape every season, because
Kilian Jornet: Every season, like all the brands they are like, and that's like, just to invite people to, to replace the older government, not because it's warm, but only because it feels old. So like how to work against that, to fight about making products that they are durable, but that, yeah, we believe that if we make a design that is good, we don't need to change it until we find the better, uh, solution when it comes to materials or to functionality, but not because just changing with the color or changing the shape, because it's, it's a trend. And I think, um, that here, uh, it it's a challenge because you need to make money to be able to, to sustain the team, to sustain the business and to, to invest on like, uh, better materials or it's invest on, on, um, on better, um, uh, factories. But, uh, but that cannot come with, uh, promoting our consumption. And, uh, and we have a problem about the consumption in yeah. In general, in the world, but also help industry. And we are trying to figure out how to, how to make that possible.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. You say also on the website that you want the products to be multifunctional, of course, you're not just a trail runner. You're also a ski Mountaineer, an alpinist. Do you have plans to have products across those different categories? Like, is this gonna be more than trail running product?
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. Uh, we, we consider ourself as an elder company. Mm-hmm
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. So eventually I want to get around to your own competitive season. So we'll sort of wind down the conversation about normal, but I'd love to hear what your goals are for the company. Do you envision this being something that is like a global iconic brand competing with the likes of Solomon and the north face? Or do you think it's gonna be kind of like a, a small sort of family oriented business, or is it too early to tell what are your goals?
Kilian Jornet: Uh, yeah, it's, it's too early to tell and, and it it's very, it is like when you do a project, like, uh, when you think about the writers, like it's very easy to make a PowerPoint and say, okay, will attack that. And I will, but then reality it's, it's different. Yeah. So, uh, we will see, uh, like our goal is to, I believe that companies, if they want to make a change, uh, they need to be successful too. Um, because, uh, it's, um, uh, I will like make the, the power with the foot industry, but I think it's a very good example that, uh, uh, we know that, uh, agriculture, it has a big problem when it comes to, to greenhouse gas emissions and when it comes to land use, and, and it needs to change all the, the agriculture model mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: But that's because I, I have I'm well, feel like I, I have a, um, yeah, I can afford it. Yeah. But, uh, the problem is that, uh, if the wealthy, only the wealthy people can afford like, uh, uh, sustainable, uh, food, uh, that will not change like the, the system and, and, and we need to a system systemic change. So that will come when the most part, all what would be the best. But if the most part of the food around, like in, in supermarkets, in, in the stores is sustainable. Uh, it's uh, coming from regenerative, agriculture is coming from, uh, uh, more local producers and that don't affect the price or like the average price is base on, on, on good food. When it comes to, to that, then it, it, then we can start to think about changing, uh, the system mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: So it's the same, I think, in the industry that, um, companies it's important that it's, uh, niche companies that, uh, they are really working, uh, for, um, for products that they are, uh, uh, in the best, like, uh, uh, yeah. Uh, working only with the most sustainable products and, and that, and that's, that's super important because it, it gives a lot of research. It, it invests a lot on, on, uh, uh, on investigation and research on finding new materials on testing these materials on that. But we also need like large companies that they say, we want our products to have, uh, very high standards when it comes to sustainability. Mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: The products that the company says the most are very bad. Uh, that does not good. I would say we need to have like a very, like the average of the, the environmental footprint, uh, of the company needs to be, to be the, the, the lowest. Yeah. And that comes from working together. And, and when it comes to corporation is about that, is that companies that they are focusing more on materials mm-hmm,
Kilian Jornet: We, we are thinking and hoping for, uh, the fall. So, um, now we, we has been testing, uh, the products, uh, uh, we are still testing, but we are very confident what about what we have, and we are producing and, you know, very well, how, how is this? It takes time and yeah. And, uh, and yeah, but, uh, we are, we are thinking that in the fall, it will be, it will be available. So great. Yeah.
Dylan Bowman: Awesome. Keep us posted. The free throw podcast is brought to you by gnarly nutrition. You guys have heard me talk about the fuel to a drink mix, which is my primary fuel source for long runs, workouts and races. You've heard me talk about the BCAA drink mix, which I love and use every day. Well, today, I want to tell you about the gnarly performance. Greens is a powerhouse strength mix that packs a punch with vitamins, minerals and nutrients. That's easy to add to a glass of water or to your recovery smoothie, gnarly. Co-founder Shannon. O'Grady refers to it as a whole foods based multivitamin. And that's exactly how I've been using it. A serving a day to keep my body feeling healthy, energized, and topped off with all the little nutrients that maybe I'm losing in training or not consuming adequately in my daily diet.
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Dylan Bowman: As I understand it, white blood cells are the body's first line of defense against infection. So a low count could indicate that my immune system is not as robust as I would like it to be, which is not ideal as that ramp up training and start to think about traveling to races. Again, I want my immune system to be as fortified as possible. So here are the steps I'm taking. Number one, taking the gnarly performance greens, but also doing everything I can to increase my vitamin C intake. Harmony has been making me fresh squeeze, citrus juices. Every day. I've been having more vitamin a things like carrots and kale, vitamin E from almonds and Hazel knots, and a little mineral called selenium that I'm not sure I ever heard of before. Most commonly found in Brazil, nuts. These things are all powerful antioxidants that can help fortify my immune system and hopefully bump up my white blood cell count over time.
Dylan Bowman: I'll share more about my personal findings in the weeks ahead, but you should go check, check in on yourself too. Get 20% off in inside tracker blood test by going to inside tracker.com/free trail inside tracker.com/free trail back to the show. So, um, yeah, let's, let's pivot over to your athletic life. I know you've been very busy building this company and tending to your family, but you said you've been training as much as normal, which is very high volume. You posted that this season you're gonna be doing as Agama hard rock Sierra Andal UT M B all races that you've already won multiple times, Z Gamas coming up in just a few weeks. And you're going for your 10th victory already at that race. It's absolutely insane. You've already won that race nine times. How has your training gone this winter and spring? And how are you feeling about your running fitness with all you have going on, especially somebody who spends your winter on skis?
Kilian Jornet: It it's been, it's been good. Like, uh, I haven't been injured. That's the first thing, like, uh, nothing since, uh, since, uh, two years ago. So that's, I believe that it's not about like making huge sessions, but about being very consistent and at least, um, I'm, I'm happy with, uh, uh, since last our team, when I finished last season, uh, I've been consistent. So, um, also because with the, with the kids, actually I am running much more now in the winters because, um, like, uh, let's say like, normally, like, uh, Emily goes train in the morning. So like, uh, when we leave, uh, uh, our older daughter to the, to the kindergarten and then she goes training and then at midday we change. So I go skiing. And then, uh, when the girls are sleeping, I'm doing second session and this second session is in the treadmill.
Kilian Jornet: Ah, so I have been running like, not much, but I think like, uh, between 50 and 70 kilometers per week, mm-hmm
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. I'm curious Killian, cuz I know this is just popping into my head, but I know you're a fan of sports and you follow different competitive outlets, you know, from, you know, I mean you tell me, but I know you follow like cycling and track and field and probably a lot of other sports, maybe football, soccer, who are some of the athletes you look up to because I mean, you're obviously just like this icon in the world of mountain sport and I'm sure there's some people who you look to for inspiration from other sporting disciplines who are some of those people I'd be curious to hear.
Kilian Jornet: Mm it's a lot of coaches actually it's a lot of, uh, of, um, physiologists or uh, are, um, uh, biologists and nutritionist that, uh, because it's also very important. Like we, we, we follow the athletes, but some athletes are very interested about like the training and some, they, they, they don't care at all. So Uhhuh, I, I, I found more interested to follow the different, um, uh, yeah, coaches and try to talk with them about, uh, how do they, uh, because like we can follow nowadays. I think we have too many information in general when we follow athletes, ah, that, uh, oh, these athlete is doing this and, and then we try to see what's the methodology behind and we find the methodology, but, uh, but it's difficult to see, uh, what are the, the principles, uh, on that methodology and like, to, to just try to, to, to do the same that other athletes, that that's the most stupid thing that someone can do because like the principle of individuality it's, it's gone.
Kilian Jornet: So I believe that it's more important to talk with the coaches and see, okay, what are the ideas behind if they are thinking about, um, uh, more, uh, AIC kind of training or more about like the, uh, the, the, the neuromuscular part or the, um, more the, the mentor part or about, uh, how to, to, to, yeah. To plan the seasons or so all these ingredients, how it comes and then to try to see how you can apply that to one individual that can be, uh, oneself. So, uh, following. And, um, like if people go to my, probably my Twitter account is where I follow, because it's, where is more discussions. If they see what, who I'm following, they will see like, uh, all these coaches and, and then trying to, to see that. But when it comes to athletes, um, many, I would say, and for different resources, I, I love like climbing wall because it's a lot about, um, uh, the, the game with, uh, mentally like alpinism, uh, how to, to be able to push, like, and to be able to, to mentally play, to, to endure.
Kilian Jornet: And I think, um, um, climbers, they are excellent on that. Uh, of course it's, uh, guys like, uh, Alex Connell, uh, that, uh, they are really pushing that or, or, or Tommy Calwell, but also like Al uh, it's, it's a very good young generation in France with, uh, um, uh, Benjamin dreams or, uh, salsa, um, that they are really pushing us for the limits and, and to follow what these guys are doing. It's, it's incredible. And, and then other sports athletics, I, I love, I I'm a very bad like, uh, runner when it comes to, to run on flood, but I love to see, uh, what they are doing and, and like all the Norwegians. I think they are doing a very good job when it comes to training. And, uh, I
Dylan Bowman: Was just gonna say, I, I read an article and outside yesterday about how Norwegian trained basically. So this just popped into my head also, because of course you live at Norway now and like the Ironman world championships happening this weekend in St. George and two of the favorites are Norwegians, the Olympic 1500 meter runners, Norwegian. I think they said the population of Norway is the same size as the state of Texas here in the
Kilian Jornet: Us. Yeah. Like 5 million.
Dylan Bowman: So, but it's incredible talent, especially in sort of the endurance sport. Has that influenced you at all? You are living there in Norway for several years now.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. And, and I don't think it's more talent than, than of course it's not more talent than other countries, but it's when it comes to sport than to success. It's a lot about culture. I would say more than them. Like, yeah, of course they, they give people like, uh, if they find a way they will succeed, but it it's a lot about the culture and that's why probably Kenya and are also, uh, so good on, on athletics. Uh it's because, and, and here, the example in Norway is that they are really looking in the long term. Uh it's uh, like some rules, like, uh, in competitions, like it's not, um, like res on competitions until 13 years old. So younger kids, they are competing, but they are not being, uh, like, uh, better or worse kind of like, so you are not, uh, saying to a kid, okay.
Kilian Jornet: You are like, uh, slower than this, you are worse than that. It seems like fun. And it's building a lot about the movies sport about like people, the love of training, more of like the competition itself. So it, it creates this, uh, yeah. This culture of being out and practicing and, and not, not focusing on the result, but on like the being on the teams being on the, on, on part of the, of the movement. And also like some kids, like they develop slower than others. So like some talents they will show up later. And, and if, if you are really focusing on, on, on REOs from a very young age, those kids, they either, they will not, um, be selected for teams. So they will have, uh, uh, not the same coaching opportunities, but also, um, many will get, um, UN motivated to, to keep competing.
Kilian Jornet: So I think that's a big, big thing that they have here. And then like just the love of outdoors and, and
Kilian Jornet: Wow. So they could work on like the aerobic capacity and on not focusing on the short term results. And I think that's huge problem. It's the same in Kenya. Like, uh, I, I would say it's many people training together and, and, and competing together and like looking for the long term. And, and that's, that's one problem that we have many of the, of the countries, uh, an accident that we are looking so much for the short term. Yeah. When it comes to support that only the very gifted people stands out, but many gifted people, they, they just are lost on the way because we,
Dylan Bowman: Because of a short term mentality. Yeah. That's fascinating. And, uh, I didn't know that about the triathlon Federation in Norway, but just for our listeners, Christian Blumenfeld Norwegian did manage to win the Olympic gold medal in triathlon this year. So that's an amazing story. I think he's making, I think it's a Ironman debut at the world championship this weekend, so hopefully he'll make, uh, Norway proud. So back to, uh, your season in Killion, I think, you know, the highlight of the year for you is gonna be the hard rock, UT M B double. And I think people might forget that you did this already and 2017. Yeah. When you won hard rock and then finished second to Fransua in one of, you know, the most exciting, most competitive, a hundred mile races in history, you
Kilian Jornet: Were close that you were,
Dylan Bowman: I wasn't close enough. I wasn't close enough. Um, but I'm curious, you know, how you're thinking about that. What are your goals for those two races? And is there anything that you learned from 2017 that you maybe hope to improve on?
Kilian Jornet: I think it's, it's very different approach from 2017, because for me, 2017 was like focus on Everest. So I build my season on like Everest, and then it was like huge training block on, uh, February, March, April. And then, uh, then after rest, I was, I think I got a lot of stamina, but, uh, my, my season was like, it was huge. The, the training effort on, especially on April, uh, and March, April, and, and then of course the expedition. So, so I, I say, okay, I'm in good shape. I, I go for like a trail running season, but it was, I didn't plan to do any trade like this, this summer, it was more like, okay, I'm, I'm happy with expedition. So just like have fun in the summer. And then it was, it was like, I was feeling so good because it was, uh, of course it was hard.
Kilian Jornet: And then I think I was going to, to, to see Al too. And, uh, and then UTB and then, then some more races, but I was like, I was born out, I think, uh, after, um, uh, yeah, I think I managed to, to, to get a good and to get a good Al and to, to, to get a good team B, but mostly because like the, the background, I would say
Kilian Jornet: And then, like, I think it's three weeks after he serves now that, uh, it's a lot of recovery. It needs to be done in between and, and to, to train the speed or like to, to download the speed. And then after Al it's it's one week to, or like one and a half week to TV, so then it's mostly to rest. And I believe that if, if I'm well at Al, then it can be, I can be good because I, I had the endurance from, from Hardrock. Yeah. But if I arrive a bit born on Al, then it would be very hard to, to, to link the, the two of them.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. Well, it'll be fun, fun to watch. And I think the competition between you and Fransua at hard rock is gonna be especially exciting for us fans of the sport. I wonder if maybe you wanted to share your feelings about, you know, his season from last year was incredible winning both hard rock and UT M B, you guys were long time teammates with Solomon. I think you have a lot of respect for one another and you get to compete against each other again, I think for the first time since that UT M B in 2017, is there, uh, any, anything you wanna share about your relationship for, with Fran wall? Or is there anything that he's done recently that's inspired you to, you know, step up your game as an athlete?
Kilian Jornet: Yeah, I think it's it's well for, well, like, uh, it's, it's a master, like when it comes to rule, trend runs, like he's, he's so consistent, like all the races he's doing, like he's always there and he's, he really, I think, uh, like, uh, he knows how to do it. He don't have any bad days. Like he's always there when it comes to, to analyzing the race, to, to doing the good preparation and, and yeah, he's really nailing all the times. And that's, that's so, so inspiring. And, and he's such a nice guy, like, uh, it's, he's just very humble person. Like, uh, also he has, uh, three kids, uh, family life and, and, and I would say what really inspire me of Fran SW the last years is how he's been, uh, improving in this chemo, uh, the last years, because he's, he's been a, a very good athlete when it comes to, to long distance for very long, like, uh, um, I remember the first races we did together in the 2000, I dunno, 10, 11.
Kilian Jornet: He was already like, uh, at that level on, on long distance. But the last years, uh, especially this winter, the last winters he's been like competing, uh, in some of the ski workups. And, and that's a big challenge. Uh, I would say because it's, it's very fast, it's, it's a completely different kind of effort and he's been improving so so much. And, uh, and that's super inspiring. And I think that will give him, uh, extra level also for, uh, for the, the long distance. And that will be crazy because he's already so good. So it would be super interesting to, to follow like what Fran was doing, not only the summer, but I think in the following years, because he, he has a long career ahead of, of him still.
Dylan Bowman: Yeah. Well, it just makes me so happy that, you know, you guys can speak so positively about one another. When, you know, you guys are competitive rivals, and I think it's so good for the sport to, you know, have people like you and him who are just gracious, humble champions, and, you know, Jim and Courtney Dewal and many others in the sport exemplify the same thing. But, you know, I think it's, uh, gonna be really fun to see you guys compete against one another. And, uh, you know, it'll be a positive for the sport, you know, from an observation and a fan perspective too. So killing before I let you go. I'd love to talk about kind of the state of the sport with you, cuz he, something you posted about recently that I think is interesting and worth talking about and uh, effectively just on your Instagram, people can go find it. You, we're just kind of talking about how it's, it's getting harder to understand the sport and competition is getting diluted because of all these series. You mentioned it a little bit earlier in our conversation today too, as one of the sort of leaders and icons of our sport. What has you excited about trail running right now? And, and what do you think we could be doing better?
Kilian Jornet: Well, it's, it's complex. Um, first because, uh, the sport is very complex, uh, because we, we are doing a sport or practicing an activity that it's, it's very, it's very singular. Like every single race it's completely different from another single race. Like when you think about, um, uh, athletics, uh, um, a 1500 in, uh, in Japan or a 1500 in, uh, in, um, Colorado, we look very, very similar it's in a track it's the same distance. It's the, the, like the rules are so specific that, uh, that makes easy to replicate. I running that's, uh, that's not possible because it's, uh, it's doing, we are running on and natural it's, uh, it's just different in every corner. Like I could do like 100 races starting from my house that they are completely different
Kilian Jornet: And, and, and that's, that's good. Like, I think that's the best thing about the running that it's, uh, very diverse and that, uh, we have a Western estate and, uh, a, or a vertical kilometer or a TKI and, and all this it's about running on the, on the others. But, uh, inside that, uh, of course we can like see that it's, uh, it's different, uh, like, uh, disciplines. And, and that comes also about the story of the sport, uh, people running in the mountains, like for competition, it's, it's not new, like, even if the sport has been growing a lot for the past, uh, 20 years, um, like competitions, especially in UK with the fair running, it started like, uh, more than, or like 200 years ago. Mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: Uh, so of course that's very different from like, uh, the culture, uh, of like the, the endurance Evans in the us with, uh, the Western stage and lead beers and all that, where it's, it's a complete different philosophy or, uh, when sky running started, it was Marino committee that he was like a, uh, one of the best alpinist at the moment. And he like to go fast. So he was taking Alpins roads and, and just taking his friends that they were mountain guides and, and to climb back or down LAN. So it was not about like athletics, but it was like about fast mountaineering. So all this it's, uh, it's what we call trial running today. And, and we, we need to understand that there are differences. We cannot talk about our running as a singular sport, but, uh, it's, uh, it's many disciplines, uh, sight, and that's something that we have been very bad, I think, uh, to, to explain to the public, because of course it's not the same, like a marathon and a 100 meter, uh, when it comes to athletics.
Kilian Jornet: So it's not the same, like, uh, trache or, uh, Western mistakes. Yeah. Like, uh, one is for like climbers that go fast and the other is for athletes that, uh, can go long mm-hmm
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. And, and then like, uh, and the, at the end of the journey, like, uh, I believe that they running it's more about the races because they have a very different soul. Each of, not only about the, the terrain and the difficulty and the, the, the technical, um, parts of the race, but also like the soul and the ambience and, and how it is like we were mentioning before, like hard, and it can be, and I think they are, when you look the numbers, they could be very similar.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. You can be. Yeah. While when you are in hurricane thing, it's more like you want to, to share and you want to share with the other runners, uh, kilometers and you want to share with the, a stations. And, and, and it, it happened to me that I, I go to these races and probably to use the same that you go to these races and you approach it very differently. Mm-hmm
Dylan Bowman: Feeling.
Kilian Jornet: Yeah. Feeling because it's
Dylan Bowman: Like, because that's what makes it
Kilian Jornet: Special. Yeah. Yeah. It makes it special and it's not better or worse. It just different. And that's, that's the, that's what I love about the running is that, uh, you can do so many races and how yeah. Be able to push yourself or be able to have a more community feeling, or be able to, to engage yourself like mentally or technically, or to just like, get exhausted about the distance and like have hallucinations on a race or so it's, it's all about that. It's just to have different experiences. Yeah.
Dylan Bowman: Well, Killian, I think it is an exciting time in the sport. And I know you're a natural introvert, like you said earlier, but I'd encourage you to just use your voice a lot in this next generation. I think a lot of the things that you say just have a lot of power to them, and you could be a great leader in this, you know, sort of next generation. So maybe a closing question for you before I let you go, Killian, you've had so much success, obviously. Like there's almost no other athlete, who's won more races than they've lost in their career, but I wonder if you can identify one big mistake or one big failure that you've had in your career and maybe something that you learned from it to help make you a little bit more relatable to the rest of us.
Kilian Jornet: Um, many and I, I, I'm not lying when I say that when I, I go for a, for, uh, an activity in the mountains, I turn around the 50% of the times, like I turn around because I feel that I'm not ready that I, the conditions are not, or, or that, so that's something that I fail, like the 15 of times, which I plan an activity and, and I I've done a lot of big mistakes and that comes, uh, I, I can think about, uh, when, um, Emily and I got caught in, in a storm, in the, in the north face of Aquidity, that was a huge mistake of my part of like, over estimating our, uh, capacities as a, as a, as a team. And, and, and just like being so stupid on like, yeah, going there, knowing that the conditions were degradating very fast.
Kilian Jornet: Uh, and also like when it comes to, to, to competition and, and, and training. Like, I, I think I, yeah, it's, it's been some, some moments that I haven't been able to, to emotionally, um, yeah. Uh, manage the, the decisions, uh, especially, uh, after like, uh, yeah. Uh, some yeah, difficult moments in the mountains. And, and then like, uh, for a period of time, like I was like trying to, to avoid like the, uh, yeah. Those, those stalls. And, and it was, uh, a part of me. I, I, I don't like alcohol. I did the taste of alcohol. It's something that I never like it. And, and for a period of time, I was getting drunk at every race. And it was just to, to forget about like, uh, an accident that, uh, we had in the mountains. And I lost a friend and, or like, uh, I was competing also to escape from, from that saying okay.
Kilian Jornet: To, to try to, to build who I was through the competition. And, and, and I think that was, uh, a mistake. I should probably have time, take more time to, to figure out that without the need of competing. Um, and then in races, like it's is more trivial, but I think like, uh, it's funny, like, uh, first time I went to Western state, like, it was like, okay, I'm, I'm a fast guy from Europe. And, uh, I went there like, as I would start, like in, in, uh, in Australia here, just like, think, okay, it's dream. So I can drink there. I'm not understanding what, like hot means when you go to Western states. Can
Dylan Bowman: You believe that was already 12 years ago, man, that unbreakable year, the first time that you came to Western, state's crazy. Sometimes. Well, Killian. Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah. It's just so great to have you in this sport. And it's been an honor to have you here on the podcast. Good luck with normal, good luck with your season. And, uh, thanks so much for having this chat with me.
Kilian Jornet: No, thank you very much. And, uh, first congrats for everything you are doing. I know also like, uh, what you are doing with, uh, with the, the, the products, like with the Keyman, but also like with the free tray, like it's, uh, uh, you are saying that, uh, I can have a voice, but what you are doing, it's, it's incredible to, to inspire, uh, guys like myself that, uh, we are going out to try to, to train harder every day, but also to the new generations to, to explain this sport and the beauty of like going out, running in the, in the outdoors and it's, uh, yeah, it's good as for what you're doing, and I'm sure that we will cross, but very soon in some of the races the summer,
Dylan Bowman: I hope so. Thanks for saying that Kelly,
Dylan Bowman: You have it folks. The great Killian Jonne has now officially been a guest on the podcast. A lifelong goal achieved for me. Thanks so much to Killian for taking the time to do it, filling us in on his new brand. I'm excited to see some of the product as it becomes available. Sounds like this fall, the evolution of normal will be a fun thing to follow in the coming years. A big thank you to the sponsors of free trail and of the free trail podcast. First and foremost, speed land. You guys know my feelings about these guys and about this brand sky is the limit visit run speed, land.com. Grab a pair of the SL HSV follow 'em on Instagram. Make sure you stay abreast of the other products that are coming down. The pipeline that are especially exciting, gnarly nutrition, best nutrition company in the world.
Dylan Bowman: Shout out to gnarly smashed 10 bottles of this fuel two oh, drink mix at me walk a couple weeks ago. Really the best race fueling product I've ever used. So go visit, go gnarly.com. Use code free trail 15, grab some of that fuel two oh, drink mix for your next long run or race effort inside tracker. Big shout out to these guys. They have been an awesome supporter of the show. And honestly, I feel so much better as a result of implementing some of the learnings that I took from my inside tracker blood tests. So go to inside tracker.com/free trail for 20% off your own blood test. So you can start feeling as good as your boy does. Thanks so much to inside tracker. These brands have been so supportive and it would mean a lot to us. If you could show your appreciation by supporting them back.
Dylan Bowman: If you enjoy the show, please go leave us a rating or review in apple podcast to help other people find it, share it on social media, send it to a friend or a training partner. All of those things are really helpful. As we try to spread trail culture to the largest audience, we possibly can hope everybody is feeling inspired. Hope you're all feeling good about your training life. And the news is hectic right now, but the trail community is a true bright spot in the universe and it is a joy to be part of it. Thanks everyone for listening. Love you so much. Bye bye.